Faith without Doubt is DEAD

This will ramble a bit...unlike most of my well-thought out and presented posts here. HA! That IS a joke! Very GOOD!!

I made a statement on an off-topic thread on the Nutrisystem forum that created a total offshoot of thinking for me that I wish to capture here in MY spot.

My initial statement: "Show me a Christian without doubt and I'll show you a Christian without faith."

I was quite seriously astounded when another woman professing to be a Christian came back at me with:
"No, show me a Christian with doubt and I'll show you a Christian without faith. Didn't make that up. It's fact."

I responded to her:
"FACT? wow. How does one come TO faith if one has never had doubt? You had zero doubt in life - and then 'poof' - you had faith in God? I'm very very confused by that. BELIEF - now that one I can buy into. I can believe something without a doubt. And without ever HAVING had doubt. But can I have faith without having had doubt? Nope.

I'll stand by my 'on the spot quote' and say that if I had never doubted, I would have no need of faith. It is by my very doubt that I came to recognize my need - and by my doubt in my 'worthiness' - that I had to find faith that Jesus would take me 'as is' to fulfill that need."

Found this googling and like it - a lot. Well written and explains my thinking a bit further. After reading this - I would say that under this definition I'm less conservative than I have thought...and certainly not dogmatic. And no - this isn't a political thread - but I find Glenn's points to be applicable outside of politics.

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From here: Glenn Greenwald’s new book (A Tragic Legacy: How a Good vs. Evil Mentality Destroyed the Bush Presidency)

These days religious people want to be called “people of faith.” But I object to the practice of using the word faith as a synonym for religion. Faith is a component of religion, to one degree or another, but not religion itself.

Zen students are told that the path of Zen takes “great faith, great doubt, and great determination.” I found a dharma talk about this by Sensei Sevan Ross, who is the director of the Chicago Zen Center, called “The Distance Between Faith and Doubt.” Here’s just a bit:

Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice - gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place.

Faith and doubt are supposed to be opposites, but the Sensei says “if we have no faith, we have no doubt.” I would say, also, that true faith requires true doubt; without doubt, faith is not faith. This is exactly the sort of paradox that permeates philosophical Taoism and its cousin, Zen Buddhism, but which is alien to the way most westerners understand faith and doubt.

Zennies are, I admit, not exactly in the mainstream of American religion. Zennies were never all that mainstream in Asian religion, for that matter. Even so, in the histories of the major monotheistic religions — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam — you can find many great theologians, scholars, rabbis, contemplatives, and mystics whose religious understanding came from wrestling with their doubts.

I found an online Catholic encyclopedia that defined doubt as:

A state in which the mind is suspended between two contradictory propositions and unable to assent to either of them. … Doubt is opposed to certitude, or the adhesion of the mind to a proposition without misgiving as to its truth; and again to opinion, or a mental adhesion to a proposition together with such a misgiving.

I like that definition. To religious seekers and mystics, “A state in which the mind is suspended between two contradictory propositions and unable to assent to either of them” is a fertile place from which profound understanding may grow. Certainty, on other hand, is a sterile rock that grows nothing.

Unfortunately, religious institutions tend to be run by dogmatists, not seekers. And dogmatists don’t like doubt. This same attitude spills over into non-religious beliefs and ideologies. Some people (me, for example) enjoy diving into a nice, messy paradox or conundrum to get to the bottom of it. Others hate ambiguity and want easily digestible bumper-sticker answers for everything. We call the latter sort of people “conservatives.”

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Responding on this thread - beginning this thinking - and then starting up yet another thread (on two different forums/groups in fact!!) to continue this process - brought more 'revelation' for me.

Another poster: "I can't see ANY thinking person NOT having some kind of doubt at some time"

To which I responded: "In my experience, it is through those cycles of doubt and faith - with my faith being strengthened by every attack of doubt as I come through it yet again - is where maturing faith comes from.

Doubt, the seed - Faith, the crop?"

To which she responded: "I make a distinction between "belief" and "faith" in that I feel that belief is arrived at after thought and therefore admits doubt and often faith does not allow for doubt --- not dictionary meanings I'm sure, but the one is a decision and the other is an abdication of thought --- others use the words differently than I do, but I think you can see my point, regardless of the term one uses for each "method"..."

And that's when I REALLY got revved up on thinking...

I've not tackled this one before - so I may change my mind as we go - that's allowed though - I am woman.

I do see a distinction between belief and faith as well. But not sure if I would agree with your personal definitions (i didn't go look them up either - was tempted but decided to see what I thought by putting my words down first - then seeing what the dictionary thought of my thoughts!!)

Kahlil Gibran said “Faith is an oasis in the heart which can never be reached by the caravan of thinking.” I would have to say that quote/thought is more along the lines I would see the distinction. They're VERY interdependent though. I cannot think of a good example of something I believe that doesn't require faith in SOMETHING. Faith in science - God - myself - something! I also cannot see how faith can occur without a belief. It seems to me that one should come before the other...but not sure!!

Okay. Let me try this again.

Doubt...Belief...Faith...Knowledge
I doubt something to be true
I believe something is true
I have faith something is true
I know something is true

Belief COULD come before doubt. I'm thinking of young children here. Belief that they will not be hurt if they fall...until one time they fall..and then doubt is born. Belief comes before knowledge - I don't see how knowledge can come before belief.

Faith - I think is cyclical with doubt. But I believe that doubt exists first - then faith. It may cycle after that - but I can't think of an example where faith would exist prior to doubt occurring. A child can believe they will not be hurt if they fall...then fall and get hurt...then doubt...then have faith that their parent will catch them the next time and prevent the fall/hurt.

Knowledge - cannot exist without faith. At minimum, I have to trust (have faith in) myself that I have gathered enough evidence for a belief to turn to knowledge.

It seems impossible to me that knowledge would ever come first.
It seems impossible to me that faith would come before doubt - OR before belief (faith in WHAT?)
So I believe (ha!) that belief has to come first...followed by doubt...which may or may not generate faith...(if it doesn't - then doesn't that erase that belief? Unmitigated doubt? To be replaced by another belief?)...followed by faith...followed by knowledge. Since knowledge is the most elusive (though I'm probably mixing that word with 'truth' or 'true knowledge' - undisputable) - it's the least likely to occur. And if doubt can come after faith as well as before faith - which I think it can - it HAS in my experience - then anytime that doubt comes up - there are two possibilities. One - the doubt is not erased - throwing the person back to their belief - eliminating it - and requiring another belief in its place. Two - the doubt is erased by faith again - propelling the person further towards potential knowledge.

Am I making ANY sense??? I'm guessing - because I don't consider myself the first person on earth to think of these things - that I am probably thinking along some philosophical lines that have been discussed for centuries - and that there is likely some title to the way I think - and that there is likely some compelling argument for NOT thinking the way I think!! lol And hey - I won't take it personally if somebody wants to point me to what this is all called. Won't shake my faith either! *wink* Though it might create some doubt.

Okay - I've talked myself into this position until I'm convinced otherwise.
Belief
Doubt
Faith
(potential Doubt/Faith reiterated over and over)
Knowledge (I don't think this one can be overturned if it's TRUE knowledge)

There is very very little that I KNOW. I believe a lot of things. I doubt a lot of things. I have faith in some things. But I know very very very little.

Brain hurts. must stop thinking. may implode.

Looking back at what you originally said now after my mental exercise - it appears I DO disagree with you as my first instinct said. You see belief as what I would define as knowledge - the ultimate thinking/faith/doubt/arrival point. I see belief as a beginning - a hypothesis as it were. I see faith and doubt as being 'on the journey'. I STILL see denying that doubt exists as having sand in one's eyes and mouth and nose - ala Ostrich.

From a religious/Christianity point -

I believed Jesus existed and that the bible was true (4-11 yrs of age)
I doubted my worthiness - and his existence - and whether the Bible was all 100% true - and whether he cared for ME - and whether I would really go to heaven (8sh-39 yrs of age)
I (in this case received as a gift) have faith that despite my unworthiness, Jesus loves me - died for me - and that I will have eternal life (heaven is a earthly term for an abstract, imo) (11-39 yrs of age)
I do not yet have absolute true knowledge of Jesus, eternal life, etc.
I DO have absolute true knowledge (irrefutable personal evidence - though it can't be passed to others) - of 'another place' that exists with life as a being outside of this world/earth. It may be another plane - it may be another place - but I've seen it and have absolute true knowledge without doubt or a need for faith. It just 'is'. (age 25 to forever) It DOES bolster my faith in other areas where I do not have knowledge though because it FITS.

After writing the above - I went to google Kahlil Gibran on his quote - and found this quote. WOW.
“Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.”

I then headed for a dictionary because I like to own my own thoughts before 'checking' them against others...and found the exercise very interesting.

From the semi-reliable Wiki world. Wiki writing is in italics. The rest is moi.

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual is convinced of the truth of a proposition. Like the related concepts truth, knowledge, and wisdom, there is no precise definition of belief on which scholars agree, but rather numerous theories and continued debate about the nature of belief.
(cool - that's my out - right? lol)

Doubt is uncertainty in the context of trust (where it takes the form of distrust), action, decision or belief. It implies challenging some notion of reality in effect, and may involve hesitating to take a relevant action due to concern that one might be mistaken or at fault. The term ' to doubt ' can also mean ' to question one's circumstances and life experience '.

ugh. All the wiki stuff on faith tries to tie it solely to religion. I don't like that. I have faith in things other than religion...my husband...myself...science...let me find something that is non-religious definition...

okay - this is more philosophical but at least isn't so 'diety-centered-only'...and still wiki. From 'faith as basis for human knowledge...'

Many noted philosophers and theologians have espoused the idea that faith is the basis of all knowledge. One example is St. Augustine of Hippo. Known as one of his key contributions to philosophy, the idea of "faith seeking understanding" was set forth by St. Augustine in his statement "Crede, ut intelligas" ("Believe in order that you may understand"). This statement extends beyond the sphere of religion to encompass the totality of knowledge. In essence, faith must be present in order to know anything. In other words, one must assume, believe, or have faith in the credibility of a person, place, thing, or idea in order to have a basis for knowledge.

Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation. Philosophical debates in general start with Plato's formulation of knowledge as "justified true belief". There is however no single agreed definition of knowledge presently, nor any prospect of one, and there remain numerous competing theories.

Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association, and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject, with the ability to use it for a specific purpose.

And finally - for the fun of it - since this is one that I doubt any two humans can 100% agree upon...

While a common dictionary definition of truth is "agreement with fact or reality,"[1] there is no single definition of truth about which the majority of philosophers agree. Various theories of truth, usually involving different definitions, continue to be debated. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; how to define and identify truth; what roles do revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective, relative, objective, or absolute. This article introduces the various perspectives and claims, both today and throughout history.


A very very enjoyable exercise for the brain tonight - and one I wanted to capture. If you've read all the way through - you're either a fan - a philosopher - a relative - a best friend - or you should be!! :)